<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV>This is my feeling as well.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>There are 2 additional things to keep in mind:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>1) The page needs to work on mobile devices, like a palm or wince device. This is much easier with a mobile specific CSS.</DIV><DIV>2) We need to also consider what to do about wVOIP phones. (this isn't a page layout thing, its a general WifiDog thing).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>We have a few phones that we can use to test out, but I'm not 100% sure what the best practice is here.</DIV><DIV><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Lucida Grande; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Lucida Grande; font-size: 10px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Dana Spiegel</DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span"><FONT class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Executive</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Director</SPAN></DIV><DIV>NYCwireless</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:dana@NYCwireless.net">dana@NYCwireless.net</A></DIV><DIV>www.NYCwireless.net</DIV><DIV>+1 917 402 0422</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><DIV>Read the Wireless Community blog: <A href="http://www.wirelesscommunity.info">http://www.wirelesscommunity.info</A></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 27, 2005, at 11:52 PM, Benoit Grégoire wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I read the thing about the tables a few times in the recent emails to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the list.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">PLEASE don't even think about removing ALL tables. Actually we gotta</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">use tables where we are displaying things as a table. For example the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">stats. There we list stuff - this MUST stay in a table!!! So please,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">when thinking about designing HTML with CSS don't completely remove</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">tables. There are very useful but shouldn't be used to design a page.</DIV> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't think anybody meant to remove tables used for tabular data.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We were talking of the few places where they are used for layout.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I'll be<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">really anoyed if anyone else complains again we need to remove tables unless<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">they have an actual, general alternative to propose.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>"Because it's common<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">wisdom" isn't good enough.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I presume all the people arguing about it on this<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">list have the necessary knowledge to already know why tables can be bad.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>But<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">we are looking for better solutions not dogmatic ones.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I personally think that CSS has advanced far enough that it's possible to<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">separate 95% of all layout from the HTML in wifidog, and then change it only<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">from the CSS. It's going to be a LOT harder than zen garden, but at the end<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of this process, any further changes in the generated HTML should be few and<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">far between (no mater if the HTML is in templates or in the code).<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Such<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">changes should only serve the purpose of making it even easier to change the<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">layout from the CSS, except where that turns out to be impossible. <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Benoit Grégoire, <A href="http://benoitg.coeus.ca">http://benoitg.coeus.ca</A>/</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">WiFiDog mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:WiFiDog@listes.ilesansfil.org">WiFiDog@listes.ilesansfil.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://listes.ilesansfil.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/wifidog">http://listes.ilesansfil.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/wifidog</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>